When Skip Bayless left his close friend Stephen A. Smith, ESPN and "First Take" for rival FS1 in 2016, it was supposed to reshape the morning TV wars. Instead, Smith, new sparring partner Max Kellerman and host Molly Qerim more than tripled the audience in 2017 of Bayless' "Undisputed" with Shannon Sharpe and host Joy Taylor.
In fact, whether you love or hate the "Embrace Debate" format, the 10-year old "First Take" posted its most-viewed year in 2017, averaging 449,000 viewers, up 25% from 2016, vs. an average 131,000 for "Undisputed." To start 2018, the Jan. 2 telecast of "First Take" tied for the series' highest-rated show, garnering a 0.6 household rating and 823,000 average viewers.
To hear Smith tell it, "Whoever is standing in our way, the quest is annihilation. It’s just that simple," he told Sporting News in a recent interview along with Kellerman from the set of "First Take" at ESPN's Bristol, Conn., headquarters.
Among men in the advertiser-friendly 18-34-year-old audience, for example, "First Take's" audience grew 29%. The show, which airs Monday through Friday from 10 a.m. to noon ET, had six of its Top 10 most-viewed episodes ever in 2017.
Smith and Kellerman discussed the show's success, the company's social media policy, Trump's attack on their employer and more with Sporting News.
SPORTING NEWS: Looking at the TV ratings, is “First Take” vs “Undisputed” not really a competition any more? Is your show, pardon the pun, the undisputed king of weekday sports debate shows?
STEPHEN A. SMITH: That’s for somebody else to say, not for me, I’m not going to go there. What I will tell you is that Skip knew when he departed that, as much as I love him, and as much as I consider him my brother from another mother, he moved in his direction and I moved in mine. The quest was going to be complete annihilation. It doesn’t matter who I’m going up against. It’s the same thing. He’s on this side and you’re on that side. That’s the way I am. So it’s not about Skip Bayless, it's not about Fox, it’s not about the NFL Network, it's not about anything. Last time I checked, ‘First Take’ was No. 1 in cable (among men 18-34 and 18-49) for the 10 a.m. to 12 noon slot. So as far as I’m concerned, anybody that’s standing in my way is somebody that I consider to be competition. It just so happens he was Max’s predecessor.
[Skip] is no longer here. Max is here. This is our team. This is who we go to war with every day. Whoever is standing in our way, the quest is annihilation. It’s just that simple. That’s how I approach it. Whether we achieve that, or not, takes a concerted effort on the part of everybody. I need Max and Molly, they need me. We need our producers, we need Dave Roberts, we need Norby Williamson and Connor Schell, the list goes on and on. We need all the help and support that we can get. But we only need the support from people whose mission is the same as ours. If you’re not trying to win, if you’re not trying to engage in sheer dominance, I don’t want you as a part of my team. Because when I’m competing, that’s what I’m after. It’s just that simple.
MAX KELLERMAN: We have different perspectives, we have different career and personal experiences. The result for me is that debating with Stephen A. every day is a lot of fun. It is a lot of fun to go to work every day. We’re prepping the night before. Emails and texts are flying back and forth with the producers and everything. I get out of bed, I’m like, ‘What do we have today?’ I can’t wait to get going. We’re sparring partners. But it’s fun. It feels like a sport we’re playing. It feels like a chess match, a game against a great competitor. We have a lot of fun.
SN: Max, there was speculation breaking up Skip and Stephen A. would kill “First Take.” Is it gratifying to see ratings go up, not down, with you in the chair Bayless held for nine years?
MK: Of course. When you have the opportunity to join this show, that’s a special opportunity. Particularly in a declining TV market. It’s difficult. Cord-cutting, the rise of the Internet, social media, greater and greater choices -- it’s a very difficult environment to even hold a number, or even just decline a little bit. The fact that we’re increasing is something I’m very proud of. I’m very proud to be a part of this team. I never even worry about what anyone else is doing, any other show. I worry about what we’re doing. I know if we’re doing the best job we can be doing, everything else will take care of itself. I don’t see any competition.
SN: Stephen A. and Max, you’re both native New Yorkers. Sporting News broke the story ESPN is building an expensive new studio location at South Street Seaport in Manhattan. Do you want to eventually move “First Take” to the Big Apple?
SAS: We don’t discuss it much but I fully expect us to be there whenever that’s going to happen. There’s no timetable on it or anything like that. But when all is said and done, I expect ‘First Take’ to be one of the shows that’s going to be there. We’re both native New Yorkers. Obviously we’d both love to be in New York. They haven’t talked to us about it. There’s no definitive decision on it. But do I believe that ultimately the show will end up in New York? That is my hope and that is my expectation.
SN: How much did the move of “First Take” to ESPN 1 from ESPN 2 on Jan. 3, 2017 help the show? I know you and Skip argued for that for years.
SAS: It clearly has helped. I mean, that’s the main channel. People click ESPN almost by default, for crying out loud, compared to ESPN2. We always wanted to be on the main channel. There’s no question about that. There clearly are benefits to being on the main channel. But that’s not all there is that can be attributed to our success. You still have to be consistent. You still have to put forth a quality show, on a day-in-day-out basis, two hours a day, 10 hours a week. But we’d be irresponsible in neglecting to mention the benefit of actually being on the ESPN channel as opposed to ESPN2. Not to say being on ESPN2 was bad. We were winning on that channel when we were there.
SN: A year ago, FS1 was on the offensive under its aggressive leader Jamie Horowitz. With him gone, we don't see FS1 comparing itself to ESPN as much as it did last year. I don’t see a lot of marketing support for its studio shows, like “Undisputed,” “Speak for Yourself” and “First Things First.”
MK: I know what this sounds like because I ask athletes the same question. When they say, ‘I don’t really pay attention,’ I’m like, ‘C’Mon.’ But I really don’t. I don’t pay attention to them. We’re too busy doing what we’re doing. In fact, when you look at the role models, the winners in sports, you’ll hear the same thing. When you talk to the winning teams in football and basketball, they worry about themselves. You have to worry about your work. Put your head down — and do your work.
SN: Stephen A., you’ve been with "First Take" full-time since 2012. Why do you think you posted your most-viewed year in 2017?
SAS: I just think it’s been the leadership… I think it’s one of those situations where you have a guy like Dave Roberts (ESPN's Vice President of Network Content). He’s the boss. Dave is on point. He lets you know what needs to be done. He talks with everybody. We all join forces and create a blueprint. Then it’s our job to execute it. Plus, they put us on ESPN. They promote the show. You combine that with the execution, it just speaks for itself. Bottom line: We’re going to debate. We’re going to do what we do. It’s something when everybody’s on board and you’re getting the support from the top on down. All you have to do is show up and do your job. There’s something to be said for that.
SN: You guys like to play hardball, so how do you feel about President Trump ripping ESPN, Jemele Hill and protesting NFL players?
SAS: Do I believe the President should be wasting his time commenting about stuff like that? No. Do I believe the President has been a bit juvenile in his behavior? Yes he has. Having said that, it’s one thing to attack what he does, it’s an entirely different matter to attack him. When you attack him, then we are stepping out of our lane. We are a sports network. We have an obligation to wake up every day with the mindset that we not only speak for ourselves but we speak on behalf of the brand. It is not a brand that we own. It is a brand that employs us. It has entrusted us to represent it just as much as we care about representing ourselves. So with that in mind, we have to be cognizant of all those things.
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Yes, the President is going to say what he has to say. Yes, he’s going to venture in our lane to the point where it’s apropos for us to respond. But we also need to be cognizant of the fact it’s incumbent upon us to leave it there and not extend beyond that point. We’re a sports network. You become successful. You sustain a level of success by giving people what they expect. By, figuratively speaking, ‘playing the hits.’ Not deviating too far away from what people turn on the channel and tune in for to hear. As long as we remember those kinds of things, then it’s going to lend itself to us being successful as opposed to us losing our bearings because we get caught up in our emotions, and we do things that ultimately sacrifice the brand and ourselves just to react to something for 15 seconds or 15 minutes. We have to be smarter than that — even if the President doesn’t appear that way sometimes.
SN: Unlike some of your ESPN colleagues, I notice neither one of you engage with trolls on Twitter. Ever. Is that deliberate?
SAS: For me it is. Because I don’t give a damn about them. Trolls are called trolls for a reason. Understand we’re not talking about every human being on Twitter or Facebook. We’re talking about trolls. Trolls are individuals looking to bait you into something like that for their own benefit. If you’re the sacrificial lamb in their quest, so be it. Why would anybody, with any degree of intelligence, intentionally find themselves in that position? So I don’t pay too much attention to it.
You have to have alligator skin in this business. At least some of us who are in this business were raised in it as journalists. I was a beat writer for almost 20 years. It’s my job as a reporter to not be about the business of making friends or enemies, but just be in the tireless pursuit of truth.
No matter what level of vitriol or abrasiveness that comes your way. You have to have the alligator skin to take it. That’s what this position, that’s what this industry, practically requires in this day and age. If you can’t handle it, you don’t belong here. That’s why I’ve never really had that kind of problem. No matter what anybody says about me, I assure you: I can take it.
MK: I worked with Marcellus Wiley on the radio in Los Angeles and [ESPN's] ‘SportsNation’ for five years. He has a very healthy point of view about Twitter, I think. He said: Twitter is an app. Like Uber. You are under no obligation to use it — or to respond to anyone on it. It’s just an app.
SN: So Jemele was suspended by ESPN for violating social media guidelines. On cue, ESPN comes up with another new and revised policy. Was that brass in Bristol telling on-air talent like you to shut the hell up about politics -- and stick to sports?
I have more than 3.7 million followers on Twitter. I can assure you if I did not work for ESPN, or an entity with its outreach, my social media following would not be that great. Therefore it’s easy for one to deduce that, excuse me, you have this because you work for ESPN. So what is wrong with ESPN reminding you that you work for us, not Twitter? It’s logical. It makes perfect sense. The only problem that I believe any employee should have with a company’s social media policy is if you have certain policies for certain individuals and different policies for others. But as long as the policy is universal, and everybody is under the same umbrella with the same stipulations, that’s the real world, and that’s the way it goes. If you don’t like it, then get your own company, and your own social media policy, and you won’t have that problem.
MK: I would say this. I read an article in "National Review Online" that said something like that. I’m broadly sympathetic to that point of view. I agree with it, in other words. However, if there’s an issue that touches sports, and there frequently is that is outside of the realm of strictly on-the-field stuff, that’s the reality of modern sporting life. It always has been. It’s been a reality of sporting life, particularly with the New Journalism wave. Certainly Muhammad Ali in the '60s and '70s — and the social and political issues that touched sports. You don’t have to seek those out. Nor do you have to run from them. You need to be equipped to handle them when they are raised. I believe we are equipped.
SAS: Max’s point is very important from this standpoint. Look, if something touches on the world of sports, ESPN has never told me that I cannot discuss a sports-related matter. It's never happened. If I have the platform two hours a day on live TV for ‘First Take,’ why would I feel the need to go on social media and discuss something I never discussed on the very platform that I have available to me courtesy of ESPN? If they’ve given me two hours a day to use the platform, and it’s a sports-related item, and I’m not prohibited or restricted from discussing that item, why would I choose Twitter or social media to do something that I didn’t do on my own nationally televised show? Makes no sense.
MK: I concur.
SN: Conservative media such as Drudge Report and Breitbart charge ESPN has become too liberal. FS1 competitor Jason Whitlock wrote ESPN has become "politically correct" in the Wall Street Journal? What about it?
SAS: That’s a lie. I can speak for that because I’m not a liberal and I’m not a conservative. I’m a registered Independent. Joe Madison of ‘Urban View Radio,' he comes on 6 to 10 a.m. on SiriusXM, I know him. I’m a frequent guest on his show. Karen Hunter, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter for the New York Daily News and a best-selling author, she also has her show on that channel. She and I have been friends for 25 years. But I’m also friends with Sean Hannity and Mark Levin [of Fox News]. I’ve been a guest frequently on their shows as well. I’ve been on MSNBC, and CNN, and Fox News. Not just Fox News, not just CNN. ESPN has never discouraged me or veered me one way toward another.
MK: I would say this. You have to consider where that theme started. Who started that theme? A competitive network, a competitive media company, started that. Why did they say that? Because we’re winning by so much. The fact that there are those in the media who bring that up are playing into talking points of media companies trying to play catch-up. That’s No. 1.
No. 2, ESPN and the Disney company are great to work for because people are treated fairly and the attempt is there to treat people fairly and to espouse values that all people deserve to be treated fairly. I don’t view that as a liberal point of view. I’d be curious to know who does? I thought that was an American value — and a value that involves basic human decency. And yes, I do find that value at ESPN.
SN: You both love the NBA. Should the NFL pass a rule making all players stand for the U.S. national anthem, ala the NBA? Or should leagues just stop playing the anthem before sporting events -- as Max and Tony Kornheiser suggested?
SAS: In this day and age, I wouldn't’ say get rid of the anthem. If it were not for Colin Kaepernick’s protest, and the furor it created, that would be different. But in the times that we’re living in, strictly from a business perspective, I would not advocate anybody getting rid of playing the national anthem. In this particular age, particularly with this administration in the White House, that hijacked the issue successfully I might add, and made it about something absolutely that it was not about. It was not about the flag, it was about oppression and racial inequality and police brutality. But the President made it about the flag. He successfully politicized it to his advantage. I don’t think anybody can argue with that.
But because he has done that, we have seen the rippling effect it has had on the National Football League. The stadiums are not as full as they once were. Sponsors and advertisers are not throwing money at the league the way they once did. The bottom line has been compromised. If you are in the world of business, that means you are in the business of making money. Stopping the playing of the national anthem at this particular juncture would send the wrong message. It would compromise the brand. As a result, there are millions upon millions of Americans who happen to be football fans who would be highly offended by that taking place. They would make sure to exact their retribution by insuring the NFL feels it in its wallet.
SAS: I say it should be compulsory. The reason why I say it should be compulsory is because exactly the points I articulated before Max spoke. If the fallout had never taken place, then I would completely agree with Max’s position. But because we’ve seen the negative impact it’s had on the bottom line, I’m going to do, as a businessman, whatever is good business for me. If you’re asking me to make it compulsory, then that’s what I’m going to do.
MK: I don’t think it would affect business. What most people would notice is not the missing players. Most players would participate. What most people would notice is a lot of people standing for the anthem. What they wouldn’t see are people kneeling. Because those people would be in the tunnel.
SN: Stephen A., you're one of the few NBA Insiders who doesn't kiss LeBron James' a--. Is King James the most passive-aggressive superstar ever? On the one hand, he doesn’t like coverage about him leaving the Cavaliers for the Lakers or whatever. On the other hand, LeBron feeds it, no?
SAS: Yes. Not only does he feed it publicly, but he feeds it behind the scenes as well. You’re absolutely right.
SN: So Max, do you want to take back that prediction (that now 40-year old) Tom Brady was going to "fall off a cliff" when you joined the show?
MK: Absolutely not. I look really good right now having made that prediction. I told everyone he’s going to sail along with extremely high altitude until one day in the next 18 months I said, and if you recall that was late July/early August (2016), he’s not going to be there any more. Because no quarterback has ever done that at that age. He’d be the first in history. Over the last five weeks, look at the numbers everybody, look at the eyeball test. He’s missing receivers. He’s ordinary. The last five weeks, Brady has been ordinary.
SAS: I think Max Kellerman is off his rocker on that particular point. By the end of this month, my point will be proven.
SN: Stephen A, you like to tease Cowboys fans. America's Team went 13-3 last season and won the NFC East. This year, they were supposed to be Super Bowl contenders -- but went 9-7 and missed the playoffs. Were you right the Cowboys would again find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
SAS: I’ve been proven right about the Cowboys since 1995 — and counting
SN: Stephen A., is LaVar Ball making a mistake by taking his younger sons, LiAngelo and LaMelo, overseas to play in Lithuania? If they were your sons, would you rather have them at UCLA and an American high school?
SAS: Without question, I’d rather have my son at UCLA. I don’t like what I’m seeing LaVar Ball do. But in the same breath, he has been unapologetic, and very loquacious, in terms of what his mission is. He’s been consistent with it. He lets you know who he is and what he stands for. His mentality, and he’s told me this personally, is these entities exploit our kids all the time. What’s wrong with me doing the same? Especially if it’s for their benefit and the benefit of their family. That is his approach. It’s hard to argue with it. But there’s no way in hell I would take the approach he took if I had sons.